“The Safe Route Isn’t That Safe” – Shabaka Brings New Sounds and Settings to the Walker

 

This interview originally aired on The Afternoon Cruise on 3/19/25

READ THE COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Sean McPherson (Jazz88) 

It’s the afternoon cruise, and I’m chatting with Shabaka, who’s coming through town tomorrow night. He’s got a show at the Walker. Anybody who’s a fan of music at this point has been aware of an incredible run for Shabaka as a saxophonist, as a flutist, as a composer, and frankly, is just one of the most exciting artists working in music today. Very excited. He’s coming back to Minneapolis. Shabaka, thank you so much for taking time out of your day to chat with jazz 88 now I want to ask you a little bit, Shabaka, about the show that you’re planning on putting on at the Walker. What can folks who are coming in expect from your performance?

 

Shabaka 

Yeah, so what you can expect is a lot of improvisation, a lot of melodies and themes that you’ve heard on the albums, but done in a way that’s, like, fresh and invigorating, and that’s what I’ve been trying to get as a constant for all of my gigs these days, something where we’re presenting elements that the audience knows, but we’re doing it in a way where we’re trying to really just kind of create some excitement for ourselves, firstly, and then for The audience, yeah, which is, you know, it’s a tightrope, because it’s and it’s something that I’ve been balancing for the whole year, how to deliver something that people know as a show, you know, what they expect as a show, but still something that keeps us invigorated every time we perform. Like, you know, thinking about like the Miles Davis quintet pulse, you know, like from the 70s, thinking about how he kept the vibe fresh and just the atmosphere, you know, just really kind of up and invigorated. That’s from being one of my beacons in these kind of times of tourings, even though the music is very different, just the idea of trying to keep the freshness in the approach to kind of band leading and presenting off stage.

 

Sean McPherson (Jazz88) 

Does something that has to factor into that be your frequency of performances, like at some point is there just not enough gas in the tank, so to speak? So you have to go, I can’t play 18 shows a month all around the world. I’m going to be too spent. I have to be sparing with how often me and my ensemble take the stage to ensure that there is some freshness and excitement for the folks you’re collaborating with.

 

Shabaka 

Not necessarily because I find that the more shows you play, actually, the more excited I get, in a kind of weird paradox. But there’s just always got to be a vigilance that you know, that you don’t fall into what’s expected, you know, even from from myself, I find that I, I am very, I can be very dissatisfied with my performances unless I listen back to them and I’m excited, you know? So that’s something. I record my performances very often and listen back to them. So that’s the main thing. Is, I don’t, not necessarily, kind of get get tired or get I don’t get weary of multiple performances, but I’ve just always got to be vigilant that actually I’m bringing something that’s, yeah, that’s that’s fresh.

 

Sean McPherson (Jazz88) 

It’s the afternoon cruise. I’m chatting with Shabaka. He’s preparing for a show tomorrow night over the Walker Art Center in Minneapolis. He’s one of the leading voices in jazz as a saxophonist, as a flutist and as a composer. Now I have the joy of seeing you live Shabaka at a performance at ke XP in Seattle, like minded station, and you are actually performing with Sons of Kemet. And I’m in the second row, very excited to see you. It’s a hot day. There’s a lot of good energy, and I’m looking around going, This man needs a mic clip for his saxophone. Where’s the mic clip for a saxophone? I just see an SM 8 standing out there, and then you just grab the SM 58 and drop it boom right into the bell of your horn. Seen a lot of saxophonist play live. I have never seen that. It was very punk rock. It was very electrifying. And it turned out to be absolutely perfect sound and a perfect vibe. And I was just curious, like, where did that come from? Where you just said, Look, I’m just gonna drop this microphone, this vocal microphone, right into the bell of the sax, and it’s gonna work out. It absolutely did work out. But where does that come from? Like, I’ve never seen anybody do that before.

 

Shabaka 

Well, I’ve been learning it for quite a lot of years, maybe like 10 years, and I actually started it because from Pete Wareham of the band, Melt yourself Down. And polar bear and Acoustic Ladyland, he was doing it. And he was actually doing it. And James Chance used to do it. And James Chance is how we got the name, Write yourself down, because he’s got a tune called Write Yourself Down. And I just think it’s like an obvious thing to do, because actually, you’re trying to get the most signal as possible from the from the instrument. If you’re not, and if you’re not trying to get the pure, the purity of tone by having the instrument completely resonate, you’re just trying to get sounds that the sound that the sound engineer can manipulate and turn into, like sonics that blended with everything else. Then actually, the mic in the bell is a quite, you know, obvious thing to do, and I’m actually surprised that not more people have done it. It takes some specific EQ in so it’s not just that the mic is thrown down the bell and I just deal with it night by night. I’ve got a specific EQ that I, you know, give to the monitor engineer in the front. The house guy has a specific EQ, and there’s certain notes, especially in the bottom of the register, that you’ve got to manage, for lack of a better word. But overall, I really love putting the mic in the bell, and it’s just this approach to actually the most efficient way of getting level out of the instrument. And that’s been a long form, like exploration of mine, like how to actually get the best substance out of the instrument into the PA and the sax is a strange instrument in that sound doesn’t necessarily all come from through the bell at the front of the instrument. The sound comes from all over the instrument. So it’s, yeah, it’s an efficient instrument in many ways, in terms of where the sound gets out, but because it’s loud, you can get away from the inefficiency or not necessarily recognize it. With the flute. I kind of deal with that issue by putting multiple mics around the flute. I put like three mics on the flute, two at the top and one at the body, just to be able to actually pick up enough level that the sound person can adequately deal with what I’m actually giving out without me having to blow louder to get more sounds.

 

Sean McPherson (Jazz88) 

I’ve been chatting with Shabaka, who’s preparing for a show tomorrow at the Walker in Minneapolis. And Shabaka, I’m not surprised that even in our first couple minutes of talking, you had mentioned Miles Davis, because he is a man who exerted an incredible amount of artistic courage at moments where he was already kind of on top of the world. He was completely comfortable with taking a 180 turn to follow what felt right for him as an artist and as a human being. And you’ve exhibited a lot of the same courage, taking a lot of very successful projects and charting your own path, even when maybe the safe bet would be to stay the course that you had been on. For any young players who might be nervous about making a big change like that, whether it’s a textural change, a lineup change, what instrument they’re playing, change, how have you had the courage and confidence to navigate those changes, which I’m sure come with some level of stress at some level, but you’ve still seen it through and and taken the changes you’ve needed to to bring your art to where it is.

 

Shabaka 

I think the thing that’s guided me the most is just the acknowledgement that what we think is the safe route isn’t necessarily that safe. You know, playing the thing that you think is definitely going to work in an industry that’s supposed to be creative, isn’t the safe option, and it might work, you know. And there’s some cases where people do the safe thing and they have very long, you know, illustrious careers, but actually, there’s so many cases where people do what they think is the safe right things, and it just doesn’t work out for them for reasons that are completely outside of their control. Seems like the only thing that you can control is following the course of your own artistic integrity. And if you do that, even if it doesn’t work out on an industry level, at least you’ll be able to sleep well at night knowing that you’re actually following your heart.

 

Sean McPherson (Jazz88) 

I completely agree with you, and I applaud you for acknowledging that this is not the, this is not the type of career path where you go, Oh, if I just play it safe, I’ll be safe. And, yeah, no. Now, Shabaka, you travel a lot around the world, and you make a lot of beautiful music with a lot of different people. Do you feel like having a nucleus that’s pretty constant for your collaborators is the right way to go. Are you a type of person who constantly needs to sort of be shuffling in some things and shuffling out some things and some people and elements to keep what you’re doing vibrant for you?

 

Shabaka 

It’s a combination of both, actually. So there’s some players that I’ve kept constant throughout the last year of doing my own ensemble and some that have actually been letting in and out. Yeah, it’s a tricky one, like, I guess it comes down to band leading, and it’s all just about reflection and and what you how you reflect on the gigs that you have done, on the musical experiences you’ve been having, and what conclusions you come from those reflections and then that, you know, ricochets of who you decide to kind of use for what gigs at the end of the day. I just think, you know what’s needed is the best music possible, you know, or at least to be striving for the best music possible, and to be, then constantly re imagining what that means to have the best music possible, you know, because it’s a moving post, you know. So, yeah, I think once, once that’s at the front, you know, music first, then everything else, just like forms itself around that, that fact, and it becomes very simple, actually.

 

Sean McPherson (Jazz88) 

Shabaka, I’m out of questions, but the last thing you said, I just want to let you know that it rings true with the way your music sounds, because although your music has tons of complexity at times, it is imbued with this obvious simplicity. I’m not talking about a chord changes or anything like that. I’m talking about a direct line to spirit, to emotion to really strong. Energy that I think comes with you being aligned right about what you seek out. So I tip my hat to you, because I know it’s not an easy journey, and I’m sure it’s not going to be an easy journey, getting to Minneapolis for the show tomorrow, but I appreciate you taking a little time to chat with jazz 88 and looking forward to having you in town tomorrow, my friend.

 

Shabaka 

Great. Thank you so much.

 

Sean McPherson (Jazz88) 

Thank you, Shabaka.

 

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